Refreshed 2025 Porsche Taycan moves EV industry forward

Technology Electrified Vehicles
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this is a developing story, meaning i will be adding to this thread as i learn more about the 2025 Taycan, but just like how Taycan was the best EV when it originally launched the refreshed Taycan is again the best EV as it launches now, and in that way it previews the future of EVs in the same way as Mercedes S-Class used to preview the future of cars in general …

Pictured: 2025 Porsche Taycan:

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as i previously mentioned i almost ended up leasing Audi E-Tron GT which is based on the Taycan and one of the red flags that stopped me was 400 Volt charging performance … or lack thereof …

i discussed 400V vs 800V issues here:

but i will explain the issue here again. Tesla network is 400V while Electrify America ( built by Porsche parent VW ) is 800V which creates compatibility issues …

what Automotive Reviewers due to their low IQs can’t understand is that 400V and 800V are actually MAXIMUM values so a 800V station can step down to 400V but a 400V station can’t step up to 800V …

this means that once politics and protocol and payment systems are worked out a 400V tesla CAN charge at a 800V electrify america station but a 800V taycan COULD NOT charge at a 400V charger ( like all current Tesla chargers ) at a decent rate …

the old taycan has a 50KW voltage step up circuit to raise 400V to 800V but that meant the charging speed dropped from 270KW to 50KW which is a very drastic drop …

i understand why Porsche did it that way - it’s because they were in the process of building out their own 800V network and 400V was an afterthought to them …

but since the original Taycan launched Tesla, under pressure from Biden administration, started opening up their 400V network to other automakers which means ability to charge quickly from 400V is now something a new car MUST have, or it is effectively locked out of Tesla network for any real charging speeds …

so apparently the new Taycan DOES fix the issue and does it in the same way as the new Macan EV and Hummer EV before it - by splitting battery pack into two 400V modules … frankly it’s such an obvious solution that it is somewhat unbelievable they didn’t do it that way from the start … but ultimately it goes to show we are still in early days of EV adoption that we are facing such teething pains …

pictured: Hummer EV

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i must add that VW group is one of the last holdouts that still haven’t announced the adoption of NACS ( North American Charging Standard ) previously known as Tesla Supercharger, so even if it can charge at 400V you currently still wouldn’t be able to plug a Porsche in to a Tesla charger … however at least it is now physically possible and all it would take at this point is political will from VW to bend the knee to Tesla, and a very simple and cheap plug adapter.

whereas if you have the older Taycan or E-Tron GT you would be limited to 50KW on a 400V source with the new one apparently it will do 150KW by splitting the battery into two 400V halves. if that information is correct this is the most important improvement of the new Taycan over the old one.

and if the information is not correct i will post an update when i know better.

the other improvements are overall charging performance improvement of about 30% or so, as well as improvements to power, acceleration, efficiency, range, thermal management, suspension etc.

so at the native 800V the new Taycan is now the fastest charging EV that isn’t a truck, SIGNIFICANTLY faster than old Taycan which was already faster charging than Tesla Plaid. the new Taycan beats both the old Taycan and the Plaid in both maximum charging rate AND how long it can be sustained. this is what everybody is reporting on because idiot car reviewers are obsessed about records …

Pictured: charging curve comparison of New and old Taycan and Tesla Plaid:

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what these Low-IQ morons can’t understand is the chain is only as strong as the weakest link. and the weakest link was 400V charging performance. while these idiots obsess over already-class-leading 800V performance getting even faster - they completely neglect that previously ABYSMAL 400V performance is now finally perfectly adequate. WHICH IS ARGUABLY MORE IMPORTANT.

you have to understand Automotive reviewers are low-IQ subhuman animals and their audience is also low-IQ subhuman animals so in their reviews they will ALWAYS focus on what doesn’t matter and whether they even know about things that matter they will certainly not report on them because they never do and that’s just how it is.

that said the new Taycan is impressive all around and is the new benchmark for OVERALL PACKAGE of an EV.

yes Lucid still has better range and Tesla still has more power and more importantly better charging network, and Mercedes EQS still has more luxury but THE OVERALL BEST electric car is the new Taycan.

Tesla is still the better buy, however, because it is much cheaper and still has the better charging network … and it is unclear when if ever VW products like Taycan will gain access to NACS …

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my main reservations about Audi E-Tron GT

Pictured: Audi E-Tron GT:

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have all been addressed by the new Taycan:

1 - tiny trunk. the new Taycan ( just as old one ) has a Wagon variant available. the Audi E-Tron GT never had any variants with a usable size trunk. it was just 10 cubic feet ( by comparison, Honda Civic trunk is 15 cubic feet ).

2 - getting in and out of E-Tron GT was a nightmare - like crawling into a Synagogue tunnel. the new Taycan ( in some versions ) automatically rises as you open the door to make getting in and out easier. i saw the demo it rises ALOT and it is almost instant.

3 - 400V charging goes from 50KW to 150KW. that’s the difference between almost 2 hours to charge and less than an hour. this is the biggie nobody is talking about because Low IQ.

i know i keep beating on this but since 800V system came out with the original Taycan i have never once seen a single car reviewer bring this issue up even once and it’s kind of a huge issue.

my guess is IF / when Tesla opens their network the reality will hit them in the face but by then many people will have already blown six figures on the wrong car …

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TLDR: for charging network / performance you either want a Tesla or a 800V non-Tesla that somehow manages to still have decent charging speeds at 400V

aside from Taycan and E-Tron GT ( and Cybertruck ) the only other cars i know that use 800V are the Hyundai / Kia products … but i don’t know what their speeds are at 400V because i would never buy a Hyundai / Kia product …

also interesting that Audi’s own regular E-Tron ( not the GT ) is a 400V … while the GT is 800V …

pictured: Audi E-Tron:

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so basically all latest-generation EVs namely:

Cybertruck, Hummer EV, 2025 Refresh Porsche Taycan and the all-new Porsche Macan EV

pictured: Macan EV

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seem to use what i will call 400+400V architecture consisting of two 400V packs that can be either charged at 400V in parallel or at 800V in series …

THIS IS THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO IT ( imho )

of course if you have any other Tesla you’re still going to be 100% fine because Tesla network is good and is 400V and the 800V chargers can all step down to 400V as well.

however 400V tops out at about 250KW whereas the new Taycan is 320KW at 800V which would simply melt the cable at 400V …

this is why Cybertruck is the first 800V tesla because it’s the first Tesla with battery big enough to NEED it …

next-gen Tesla V4 superchargers will be 1000V which means they will also support both 400V and 800V by stepping down … but the Cybertruck can charge at any existing station because of the 400+400V design as previously explained …

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then there are of course the vast majority of EVs which are 400V non-Teslas such as Mercedes EQS for example …

they again, are fine, but the EQS is limited to 200KW peak due to the 400V architecture which at the time seemed fine because the EQS was able to compensate for lower peak power with a wider and flatter charge curve compared to the original Taycan, which had 270KW peak at 800V …

Pictured: Mercedes EQS:

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but now that new Taycan has not only 320KW peak but also a charging curve that is as wide as that of the Mercedes EQS it now leaves the EQS completely outclassed in charging performance …

so basically if you need a car that works well TODAY get a Tesla ( because Tesla network is more reliable than EA ( Electrify America ) network ).

if you want the most future-proof car get a 800V car that works well at 400V, that way you can get blazing speeds on 800V EA if you find a working station but also you have that 400V in case NACS promise ever becomes a reality …

note 400+400V architecture is MY terminology. i made it up. so don’t try googling for it.

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nice detailed analysis I like it and learned actually from it. problem w taycan normal range offerings are all castrated not to cannibalize profit margin from ICE high offerings etc, basically why IM going to pay 250k for Taycan Turbo S fully loaded when you can get 100K Tesla Plaid - EV is still a toy at the end of the day good enough to dick around somewhere like Miami for a quick drive here and there nothing else - its still not super convenient as ICE. If im spending 250K Im going w Turbo S 911 ICE and thats that :wink: or better yet put 250K down on an investment property like a normal person :slight_smile:

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Regarding the charging tech, if you are charging at home its irrelevant about how fast its charging as you only going to have a regular charging speed, so again no point in all that high end jazz of quickness of charging. It only starts mattering if you live in the city like me, in miami and my buildings parking garage doesnt even have super chargers, only selected places around town (high end malls all have them) and there will be even less of them for Porsche so again not very useful. Considering how inconvenient it is to charge EVs 250K price tag is simply not justifiable for them and Musk knows it thats why he prices EVs correctly for the market unlike Porsche. No point in 250K EV just yet - HOWEVER - Im very glad Porsche is moving it all forward with all that youve said above.

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right, so Porsche was trying to integrate their EV offerings into their ICE lineup … this was both a good and a bad thing for the consumer …

the good part being that Taycan costs the same as Panamera even though obviously electric drivetrain is more expensive to make than ICE … so the lower-end models of Taycan were perhaps in a certain sense subsidized to keep price parity with ICE because VW wants investors to believe that they can manufacture EVs affordably …

the BAD thing is that, at least before the current refresh, Taycan’s performance was perhaps somewhat nerfed by being set to more or less follow Panamera’s … so Taycan 4S was about as fast as Panamera 4S and so on … or maybe Porsche just wanted to play it safe with their first EV … before the refresh both Taycan and Panamera topped out at about 700 hp and 5200 lbs weight ( with Taycan being slightly smaller inside and also using slightly less premium interior )

this worked at first because at the time Tesla also topped out at 700 hp and Lucid didn’t even exist … but soon afterward we got 1,000 hp Tesla, 1,000 hp Lucid, 1,000 hp Hummer EV and 900 HP Rivian and suddenly 700 hp just wasn’t cutting it anymore …

Pictured: Rivian R1T:

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and that’s how we got to the point where people were getting crazy cheap lease deals on Audi E-Tron GT, that’s 90% same car as Taycan, and apparently Taycans were getting pretty good lease deals as well, because as much as Porsche wanted people to compare the Taycan to the Panamera people were comparing it to the Plaid and all the “Taycan vs Tesla” videos on youtube gave way to “Plaid vs Lucid” videos, so they had to roll out the lease deals as emergency measure …

actually the lease deals were so insane that it took me a week to even correctly read the numbers on the paper the dealer printed out for me because they seemed to be making no sense. they were offering me $120,000 MSRP E-Tron GT for $80,000 on a 2-year lease for $975 a month with nothing but taxes down. the official price was still $120,000 to protect the prestige of the brand but the ACTUAL price ( as used to calculate lease payments ) was $80,000 because everybody knew that Tesla is faster.

of course Porsche / Audi could not go on living like this forever so perhaps they decided to relax the performance peg to Panamera to allow Taycan to better compete with Plaid and Lucid while also leaning into charging performance realizing that in the future the conversation around EVs will center more around charging than acceleration.

so the meaning of the word “performance” is gradually shifting from Acceleration to Range to Charging Curve …

so the refreshed Taycan will have up to 938 hp that puts it more in line with other top dog EVs on the market … it will be hard for Panamera to match this …

Panamera is a twin turbo V8 PHEV and if we look at other such cars we see 644 hp from BMW XM, 738 from BMW XM Red Label and 843 hp from AMG GT 63 S E-performance and i would expect the Panamera Turbo E-Hybrid and Turbo S E-Hybrid to fall into that range as well …

in fact the refreshed Panamera Turbo E-Hybrid was announced and will have 670 hp … the Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid wasn’t announced yet but we know it is coming. It should logically have somewhere around 750 hp.

although it would be technically possible to keep increasing ICE / PHEV power, such cars would be both expensive, unreliable and inefficient and it simply makes more sense at that point to go EV.

a perfect example of this is the new Mercedes C63 AMG S E-Performance Plug-in Hybrid that gets 671 hp from just 2.0 liter 4 cylinder … and is such a flop that it probably will never even be offered on the US market. with two transmissions and electric turbo it is complex to the point of being unrepairable and for what ? you can just get an EV in Europe or a 6.4 liter V8 in America for same performance. Mercedes AMG basically discovered how far is too far when it comes to too much technology.

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I had a c63 from 2012 when it was NA engine, they really fucked up w the v4 nonsense banger :wink: Obviously stupid EU regs but still…

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i think the car they made is technically brilliant but should have never been called “63” or priced like a “63”

they should have realized that they have essentially made a Mercedes version of Subaru WRX STI or Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution and billed it accordingly … there would have been plenty of people happy to buy that at the right price.

now not only is nobody buying it but they damaged the “63” brand for the other “63” models that still have V8 in them.

and frankly Mercedes was on the wrong path from the start with the “63” as it originally referred to 6.2 liter and already then people were complaining that it should be called 62 …

but Mercedes couldn’t get a handle on their greed and just kept using “63” more and more loosely, so now it finally doesn’t mean anything anymore just like calling somebody “Nazi” on the internet.

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so the Taycan will also get the Active Ride option, same as in the Panamera, which i addressed here:

combined with improvements to power and charging i think this will make the Taycan easily the best EV in 2025 …

perhaps still not the best value though …

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some Taycan variant which may or may not see production did Nurburgring just 2 seconds slower than Rimac Nevera which is a 2,000 horsepower 2-seater made out of carbon fiber

https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a46265765/porsche-taycan-nurburgring-record/

more relevant to some of the members of our audience this Taycan’s time is also 10 seconds faster than 911 Turbo S

that’s right a car with 4 doors is 10 seconds faster than the top of the line 911

because 911 is fundamentally a wrong car which is only good because it’s a Porsche and IN SPITE OF being a 911

now consider this - ICE Cayman is 20 seconds faster around the ring than ICE Panamera ( because it is 1,000 lbs lighter ) so how much faster will EV Cayman be than EV Taycan ?

well i don’t know if it will even be faster than Taycan but it will certainly be faster than 911.

that said of course whichever variant of 718 EV will be this fast will be priced accordingly so i’m certainly not saying that some base model 718 EV will be in 911 Turbo S territory …

all i’m saying is that having the engine behind the rear axle is the wrong way to make a car, even though i myself believed it was the right way 20 years ago but i was wrong !

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i just assumed if 911 is so good with engine in the rear then it must be a good place to put the engine.

i never asked myself why no other car puts the engine behind rear axle ? i assumed maybe they are stupid ? well they are certainly stupid compared to Porsche but not so stupid that they couldn’t copy something so obvious.

the reason they never copied 911 design is because actually Porsche is the ONLY company that can make such a fundamentally flawed design work. everybody uses the mid-engine concept because it is the easiest one to make to perform. and Porsche sticks with rear engine because it’s their heritage and what makes 911 unique.

and the reason 911 works so well despite being fundamentally flawed is because of all the momentum it has on its side in terms of all the development money invested into it and all the little tricks Porsche has developed for it that they never bothered putting into other cars because 911 is their baby.

that said at the end of the day you can only bend physics so far and that’s what you see with Taycan beating 911 Turbo S by 10 seconds.

Porsche kept the 718 down to make 911 look good but they pulled out all the stops for this new updated Taycan just as they have with 911 in the past and the result is what you would expect.

also having seen the video i think the new Active Ride system was probably a big part of it …

i have seen the 718 hit the same bumps and bounce around like a basketball but the Taycan is completely undisturbed …

of course the new Taycan has the Porsche Active Ride while the 718 likely does not …

Nurburgring is a very bouncy track and perhaps Active Ride makes a huge difference there …

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so i have to take back what i said about new 718 EV being faster than 911

the answer is whichever car has the Active Ride will be faster on the Nurburgring

but also whichever car is lighter and has better centralized weight

and more poweful

and more expensive

:slight_smile:

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pay attention specifically at 10s and how controlled the vertical body movement is

versus how much less controlled it is in the 718 EV at 60s

notice how 718 bounces while Taycan does not

now it doesn’t seem to be the same corner but still it is clear the Active Ride on the Taycan is working …

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Porsche could build a version of 718 EV out of carbon fiber with Active Ride installed and wipe the floor with the Rimac but …

but VW is sort of merged with Rimac now so we’re back to square zero …

all the best cars are made by VW group and which one is allowed to win is decided not by physics but board room politics …

i still don’t understand who bought whom - did Bugatti buy Rimac or did Rimac buy Bugatti or something else ? either way Mate Rimac is now CEO of both Rimac and Bugatti whereas Porsche has a large stake in Rimac and blah blah blah …

and the only other hypercar on the level of Rimac and Bugatti is Koenigsegg … who happen to buy their electrical drivetrain tech from Rimac …

so basically VolksWagen dominates Hypercar space as much as Toyota dominates the business of selling pickup trucks to Middle Eastern Terrorists and Hybrid cars to NYC Uber Drivers.

what Toyota does best is efficient manufacturing of reliable cars.

what VAG ( VolksWagen Auto Group ) does best is cover every profitable segment of the market. the only thing they don’t seem to do is Uber-Cheap cars like Toyota Yaris, which frankly even Toyota itself doesn’t do ( it’s just a rebadged Mazda ).

VW Jetta is roughly comparable to Honda Civic and VAG has everything from there all the way up to Bugatti and Rimac with every thing in between covered as well.

Toyota doesn’t have that. Their highest end Lexus offerings are roughly comparable to Audi, which is below Porsche, which is below Lambo and Bentley, which is below Bugatti and Rimac

Toyota is all about maximum efficiency in largest markets … whereas VAG is all about maximum coverage of all markets …

i think VW strategy is smarter … they have a natural way tech and style trickles down from the top to the bottom … whereas Toyota is fumbling about in the dark …

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so the Taycan that set that lap time has been unveiled 4 days ago and it’s called Taycan Turbo GT and has 1019 hp.

they could have just called it Taycan Plaid.

as EVs are becoming more important in Porsche’s portfolio they are relaxing the performance peg to ICE and allowing EVs to shine.

good for them.

the new Taycan now is now:

1 - fastest around the track by some margin
2 - fastest charging by some margin
3 - best riding production car ever ( active ride )

i always thought Porsche will eventually put Tesla in its place but it’s one thing to know that it will happen EVENTUALLY and another to short Tesla stock believing that reality is about to hit the lemmings any second …

Tesla stock goes down whenever Elon sells it, not based on anything happening in the real world. The market assumes Elon knows what he’s doing and it’s mostly right. I have been pointing out since day one that if Tesla was really doomed Elon would be selling.

anyway i don’t follow Tesla Stock. Tesla is a meme.

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the real loser here is not Tesla though, it is Lucid.

Tesla still has the Supercharger Network ( which although it will theoretically be open to other automakers in practice it is unlikely non-Teslas will get the same experience as Tesla owners ) and Plaid is still half the price of Taycan Turbo …

Lucid though … is fucked. It’s as expensive as Taycan and not as good as Plaid, except for Range, which isn’t really that important. if you really need 500 miles of real world range - get a Panamera.

I will admit i once fell for Lucid’s BS - it is embarrassing to think of it now.

I don’t know why i thought of Lucid as Tesla 2.0 … i thought it would be the same Engineering that made Tesla great minus Elon Musk who ruined everything … but that’s not what Lucid turned out to be.

it turned out to still have all the same problems as Tesla, such as poor quality, and still focused on the same things a Tesla, namely specs and gimmicks … but without Elon Musk’s Charisma as salesman and without Tesla’s 10 year head start with manufacturing, service and supercharging network …

this new Taycan should be the final nail in Lucid’s coffin

Lucid simply has nothing to offer at this point. It’s like if you took Taycan and Model S and then just took only the worst parts of both and made them into one car - that’s Lucid.

take the high price and poor charging network of Taycan and take the poor quality of Tesla then add to that a total lack of dealership / service network and a completely uncertain future of the company and you get Lucid. you would have to be insane to get one.

for me the turning point was actually checking it out in the show room. i went in there thinking i was going to look at American Taycan and what i actually saw was an Electric Chrysler. The chassis castings were thin, the interior was cramped.

It was like a bad joke. Lucid billed their car as having same interior space as S-Class but it barely had interior space of a Civic. And the thickness of aluminum castings on the chassis was what i would expect to see on a frame of a sewing machine, not a performance sedan !

Lucid barely sells any of these cars and i haven’t heard of a single happy Lucid owner. NOT ONE.

The only person i know who got a Lucid was Kyle Conner’s dad Dave and he sold his after like a month.

RIP Lucid.