EV, PHEV, ICE comparison 3 X 3 matrix

i think to analyze EV vs PHEV vs ICE we need to split driving distances broadly into 3 categories - short, medium and long:

short - up to 20 miles ( mostly within electric range of PHEV )
medium - 20 to 100 miles ( mostly outside of PHEV electric range but comfortably within Full EV range )
long - over 100 miles ( when full EV range anxiety starts to set in )

and rate each ( EV, PHEV, ICE ) on each of those distances on a scale from 1 to 10 ( 1 = nightmare experience, 10 = perfect experience )

short distance:

EV: 9. no issues, just smooth power.

PHEV: 7. also no issues but engine may come on for a number of reasons ( such as to heat up the catalytic converter or engine oil or provide extra passing power ) which may be annoying.

ICE: 4. engine comes on as soon as you turn ignition. even if you never drive more than 1 mile away from your house you will eventually have to go to gas station to fill up, which may actually be further from you than the longest trip you take on a daily basis. this is stupid because you have an energy source ( the electrical grid ) at home but unable to use it.

medium distance:

EV: 8. no real issues, but minor range anxiety. depends on your personality though. i am a type of person who rarely lets my phone drop below 80% always keeping it on the wireless charger, whereas some people have their phone run through the battery until it shuts down before plugging it in. these people would never experience range anxiety - they would just experience tow trucks.

PHEV: 5. on a medium length trip PHEV will feel sluggish and noisy but will do the job and be slightly more efficient than ICE by a narrow margin, at least the first 20 miles will be nice. the reason people hate PHEVs is because they typically have under-sized engines in pursuit of maximum efficiency and as soon as battery is flat you feel just how under-sized the engine is.

ICE: 5. on a medium length trip ICE will feel lighter on the feet ( because literally 500 lbs lighter ) compared to PHEV, but will burn slightly more gas ( due to inability to cycle engine off, coast and use regenerative braking ). ICE feels better on medium trips than short ones because you’re not shifting gears as much on longer roads than in stop and go driving. the aggravation with both PHEV and ICE isn’t just the engine, but the transmission as well. the less you use it the less aggravating the experience ( as compared to smooth EV power ).

long distances:

EV: 2. will the charger work when i get there ? will i have to take some detour along the way ? what kind of charging speed am i going to get ? remember how road trips used to be before GPS ? who would voluntarily choose that for themselves ?

PHEV: 4. it will be just like an overweight ICE. without much stop and go driving there won’t be any real opportunity for hybrid system to save gas versus ICE as on highway speed the engine will stay on most of the time. you’re just going to have worse handling and braking in a more expensive car versus an ICE.

ICE: 7. this is where ICE shines - cruising on an interstate in 8th gear. this is why we don’t have electric planes - because burning fuel is the best way to cover long distances.

short, medium, long:

EV: 9, 8, 2
PHEV: 7, 5, 4
ICE: 4, 5, 7

but what percentage of your driving is short, medium and long trips ?

there is data for this !

so we’re looking at about 45% of miles in short trips, 40% in medium trips and 15% of miles in long trips …

this brings us to:

EV: 9 * 0.45 + 8 * 0.4 + 2 * 0.15 = 7.55
PHEV: 7 * 0.45 + 5 * 0.4 + 4 * 0.15 = 5.75
ICE: 4 * 0.45 + 5 * 0.4 + 7 * 0.15 = 4.85

and that’s pretty much how the pricing goes as well. keep in mind that EVs are far more expensive than they seem. for example Mercedes EQE is about the same price as Mercedes E class but when i sat inside it felt like a C class, and i should know since i had a C class for 3 years ( as well as an E class as a loaner for 2 weeks ).

so they CALL it eqE because it is PRICED as an E class, but what you get is basically an electric C class. this is how they hide the cost of the battery.

most other EVs and PHEVs find similar ways to hide the cost - for example in a Tesla the sunroof doesn’t open, there are no ventilated seats, the leather is “vegan” and so on - all of this is done to hide the cost of the EV powertrain and make it look like you’re getting a car that’s just as good as a Mercedes but Electric and at the same price … it’s a mild scam …

and like i said this isn’t unique to Tesla - basically all EVs suffer from this - including Mercedes itself …

people simply ACCEPT these shortcomings in EVs because they tell themselves that these are all “futuristic” features, and they want that quick, smooth EV acceleration and are willing to overlook the fact that they’re basically being lied to.

reality is that there is currently NO electric version of a nice car like S class or Panamera or Audi Q8 that isn’t nerfed in some way. for example EQS is less premium and has far less rear headroom than real S class. E-Tron Q8 is smaller and less premium and has less ground clearance than real Q8. and Taycan is smaller, less premium and has much smaller trunk than Panamera. these cars are NAMED and PRICED as if they are electric equivalents to the ICE models but they ARE NOT.

PHEVs used to suffer from the same issue back in the day when it was a cutting edge technology - so Chevy Volt for example was very small and uncomfortable inside and had no power seats as a way to hide the cost of the drivetrain, which was in those days EXTREMELY expensive for a $40,000 car …

Chrysler Pacifica PHEV for example had regular halogen headlights in the highest trim of the PHEV ! ! ! even as ICE versions had HID in lower trims.

essentially there is no magic. batteries cost money ( now a lot less than before ) and power electronics cost as well, and so does developing new technology.

the customer is simply not psychologically prepared to pay extra $10,000 for a PHEV variant of the same car or extra $20,000 for EV variant of the same car - they will much rather lie to themselves and pretend that “vegan leather” is “better” than regular leather ( Tesla ) or that they don’t need power seats ( Chevy Volt, Kia EV 6 GT ) or that they can see fine with halogen headlights ( Chrysler Pacifica ) etc.

reality is that EV tech is kind of better than ICE tech but EV cars really are not, due to cost cutting mainly in the interior to balance the budget after all the money was blown on the drivetrain.

when BMW i4 and then i5 came out i expected them to get poor reviews because they weren’t built on dedicated EV platforms and thus were inherently compromised vehicles …

instead they got RAVE reviews … why ?

because they weren’t cars PRETENDING to be 4 series or 5 series but rather they were ACTUALLY 4 series and 5 series.

how was BMW able to make it work financially ? by only offering the electrified versions on high-spec, high-margin variants.

so for example on 5 series the “30” and “40” engines are ICE, the “50” is PHEV and the “60” is the EV.

so in each case you pay what the car actually costs to make and as a result there is no hidden cost cutting taking place and you get an actually good car regardless of which drivetrain you go for.

brilliant, right ? well, not really …

the problem with BMW’s approach is you can’t fully optimize the same platform for both ICE and EV.

so for example 5 series in ICE variant is raised a bit off the ground even though it doesn’t have battery underneath and 5 series EV variant has a very long hood even though it doesn’t have an engine in the front.

most car reviewers overlooked these minor issues because other EVs are far worse than the i4 and i5 but i wasn’t going to overlook this.

the problem with dedicated EV platform vehicles like EQS though is the cost of a dedicated platform can’t be recouped if you ONLY offer the car in the top trim. they have to offer multiple trims and for entry level trims to be economically viable the whole car has to be cheapened.

so there is currently no solution at least as far as mass market vehicles are concerned. something like a Porsche Taycan is fine because it targets a segment where people are willing to pay what EV tech actually costs in exchange for rocket ship acceleration and low center of gravity, interior quality isn’t that important in a speed-first car and at six figures VW Group can make a pretty nice interior even after spending $30,000 on drivetrain.

but for normal vehicle used to commute there is no solution currently. dedicated platforms are too expensive to design for the low volume of EV sales and adopted platforms like BMW’s “CLAR” come with compromises.

basically @kanyewest was actually right. you have to wait until 50% of vehicles sold are EV before they are worth buying.

but the caveat here is that you have to look specifically at a particular type of vehicle. for example when it comes to Muscle Cars like Tesla Plaid we are already at that point, yet when it comes to Economy cars like Corolla and Prius we won’t be at that point for another decade or more …

you have to also look at a specific market - in Norway most cars are already electric due to incentives / cost of gas and the fact that only rich people drive cars in Europe - but in America we will be driving gas for a while because everybody ( including the poor ) drives in America, gas is cheap and there are no incentives to speak of …

finally you have to look at your social circle and peer pressure as well. @OldFriendSaysHello got an EV because all his friends got EVs. so in his circle EVs were over 50% and thus it was time for him to get one as well.

at the deal i was offered ( $4,000 down, $975 / month lease for 24 months ) for a decent spec Audi E-Tron GT i would have taken it IF it could charge on the Tesla network at full speed …

this may be the ONLY good EV ( great platform, great drivetrain, great interior ) at a good price ( MSRP is super high, but leases are inanely good because some dealers discount the price to almost the level of the residual ) out there but it has a fatal flaw in its 800 Volt architecture at a time where 800 Volt chargers are few and far between, half of them do not work, and the speed using 400 Volt chargers is capped at 50 KW for the E-Tron GT because it has to use an internal 50KW converter to step up the voltage to 800 Volts …

Tesla still has the only working charging network … and i was literally on the same block as Tesla dealership when i went to check out the Polestar 2 but i didn’t even consider looking at Teslas because Elon Musk is a faggot

I think it’s interesting though that it is Tesla, Porsche and Polestar all on the same block in Princeton, NJ … because i think a lot of people will be cross shopping those brands … all 3 of those brands have speed in their DNA …

what about the future ? how will things change ?

well the obvious weakness of EV is the road trip, and that will be alleviated with better charging solutions.

the obvious weakness of PHEV is most of them were designed for economy instead of just to be a nice car. PHEVs are mainly European cars made for European market but this economy-first design makes no sense for US market. PHEVs can in fact be easily fixed simply by using a 6 cylinder engine instead of 4. Yes your fuel economy will take a hit but you will get a good well-rounded car as opposed to a science experiment on wheels.

many people think PHEVs don’t need a big engine because electric motor is helping, but in fact PHEVs need a BIGGER engine because the engine also needs to charge the battery and haul the extra 600 lbs of hybrid components around.

a V6 PHEV if regularly plugged in will still consume less gas than a 4-cylinder ICE but at least now it wil feel like it’s worth the extra money for the hybrid system. if you go the other way - from a V6 ICE to 4-cylinder PHEV then you will feel short changed - paying more and getting less. and whatever gas you save by having 4 cylinders versus 6 won’t be that meaningful because most of the time the engine won’t even be on.

as for ICE - well there is no improving them. they are just going the way of dinosaurs.

ICE will remain relevant until automakers figure out how to design PHEVs properly - the tech is there but the understanding of how to tune it to deliver a good experience still largely is not … at least not in mainstream PHEVs … maybe Porsche PHEVs are good, still haven’t tried them …

and PHEVs themselves will remain relevant until charging infrastructure issues are worked out … this would require the industry settling on a single plug and voltage standard and payment system … we are nowhere close to any of that …

i guess my main point in this discussion is that most people focus too much on range because it’s the only thing they know and they want to feel smart by spewing numbers … but range is not the issue for either EVs or PHEVs …

the issue for ( non-Tesla ) EVs is charging and the issue for ( poorly designed ) PHEVs is SLUGGISHNESS and ROUGHNESS once the battery is depleted …

more range would solve NOTHING. idiot car reviewers talk about it the same way they used to talk about horsepower because it’s something that is easy to talk about and seem like an expert when you really know nothing.

i recently wrote about how Range is the new Horsepower:

and it is, in the sense that it’s what people talk about now …

but Horsepower never even directly translated to ability to accelerate let alone to overall car quality … you could always put a Turbo on a Civic in the old days but it would ultimately still be a Civic …

Likewise you can always put a bigger battery into EV or PHEV and thus give it more range but that is a band aid … a very expensive band aid …

If you watch closely you can see car reviewers starting to feel smug when talking about range - it’s as if they expect you to get down on your knees and thank them for blessing you with their wisdom, which is that more range is better …

all idiots think they are very clever and all car reviewers are idiots …

A normal hybrid is still the most elegant solution in my opinion. Whatever car is the most fuel efficient will be the most economical in the long run, since electricity prices and gasoline prices will probably reach parity, or electricity will become even more expensive than gasoline because of EV’s and government retardation. Electricity will become more expensive as EV’s increase in market share. Our grid can’t handle everyone driving an EV, so prices will just have to go up to even things out.

i only slightly disagree.

i think the best solution is a plug in hybrid with a light weight battery ( as opposed to long-range battery ).

such a car is basically just a regular hybrid but with the added flexibility of being able to tap into two different energy sources, one of them being right in your garage - which is useful.

remember the grid isn’t constantly loaded - there is relatively little demand at night ( although there isn’t much solar at night either LOL ). i just plug my PHEV in whenever i come home and it stars charging immediately ( because i’m stupid and lazy ) but you could in theory charge your PHEV at night when electricity is cheaper. some cars allow you to program this so you can plug it in whenever you want but they will only charge at certain times when electricity is cheap. i don’t remember which cars have that though.

gas FOR THE MOST PART ( E-Fuels etc. aside ) can only be made from oil, and oil itself has many uses other than energy and some applications like Jet Fuel can’t easily be replaced by anything affordable …

Electricity is the opposite - it can ONLY be used as energy ( can’t make plastic out of it ) and it can be made from almost anything - wind, solar, nuclear, natural gas, coal … and even oil … though nobody makes electricity out of oil because that’s too expensive …

OIL - one source, many uses

Electricity - one use, many sources

that makes Oil inherently more valuable ( and potentially more expensive ) than Electricity …

i think there is a possibility we are being banned from using Oil so that globalists can have more Jet Fuel for their private Jets … i tried on several occasions to get Urbanists to speak ONE WORD against Private Jets and they simply WILL NOT do it … even the low-level Urbanists who don’t get paid by WEF somehow understand that if no Urbanist ever criticizes Private Jets then they probably shouldn’t either…

Electricity is available at your home while Oil is only available at gas station so with the PHEV you have the benefit of adding energy to your car without having to leave the garage … which entails other benefits like being able to precondition the car without opening garage door or starting the engine …

the PLUG itself ( even with the on-board charger ) adds relatively little cost or weight to the car ( probably about $1,000 in cost and about 50 lbs in weight ) but a LOT of added value / utility … basically if you have somewhere to plug a car in where you live you should have a car with a plug IMO …

the problem is most people focus on RANGE in PHEVs and adding RANGE does add cost and weight to the PHEV if you have to increase the physical size of the battery to get there. but this is NOT ALWAYS the case for example the physical size difference between 1 KWH battery in Camry Hybrid, 6 KWH battery in C63 AMG E-Performance and 26 KHW in Panamera is not that great - namely the 26 KWH Panamera battery still fits in the trunk barely affecting trunk space, while 1 KWH Camry battery actually does affect rear seat headroom.

this is because a lot of the size of the battery is just to provide the POWER and ENDURANCE that a hybrid battery needs to have, even if it has no more than a mile of range like in a Camry Hybrid.

so then there is relatively little added cost and weight to go from hybrid to plug in hybrid - you just need to add a plug, a charger and some extra liquid cooling and use slightly different cells that aren’t focused on just power and endurance but also capacity.

just don’t get carried away with range above all else like Honda Clarity did, which ended up getting discontinued because it had 9 second 0-60.

so i agree with you that it’s better to have a car that doesn’t lean on electric power as a crutch and is rather a good car even if you never plug it in, but with the added benefit of having a plug …

this is different from what my thinking was 3 years ago when i fell for the whole “more range is better” scam because “more electric-er is better-er” line of thinking, which all car reviewers think they are obligated to repeat for some reason …

car reviewers mainly talk about things like Range and Torque because it makes them sound smart - they have no idea what they are talking about …

the reason Honda Clarity failed is because it was a science experiment, not a real car:

that huge black thing on the bottom is the battery. it is half the size of the car like in an full EV.

here is the pic of a used battery by itself:


they used the biggest possible battery to get as much range as possible out of a little econobox then acted surprised when people didn’t want to pay $40,000 for a car with 9 second 0-60, when you could get a BMW 3-Series for that money.

the embarrassing part is i test drove that Clarity SEVERAL TIMES in two different states because i wanted it so bad …

i wanted that science experiment that had record breaking range for a plug-in hybrid - i was brainwashed by car reviewers whose every single review of an electrified vehicle came down to " it should have more range " RETARDED comment …

these car reviewers figured out people are stupid and greedy and they just want more of everything even when they have no idea what they need it for - so Car Reviewers always end all reviews with the same “thoughts” like

  • this car would be better if it had more power
  • this car would be better if it had more standard equipment
  • this car would be better if the range was longer

these aren’t actually THOUGHTS. they are FLIRTING with the RETARD brain of the GREEDY DUMB FUCK audience.

ultimately though i just couldn’t convince myself that i could somehow live with that snail acceleration.

Volvo came out with with their PHEV system at about the same time as Clarity PHEV but with a completely different approach. Instead of creating some kind of a freak show science experiment to set EV range records they made normal cars that happened to have plugs. And then they trickled the technology down to a mass market S60 compact sedan that was assembled in USA and offered with good lease deals.

Volvo still felt a lot more bootleg than a proper car like BMW 3-Series or Mercedes C-Class but it was WAY better than the Clarity to drive while also being way more innovative ( in the electrification department ) than those German options so i went for it as a nice compromise.

and when i did i was almost certain my NEXT car would be fully electric … but now i actually want to go BACK to a LESS electrified vehicle. yes i still want a PHEV but i want one that is a good car FIRST and a PHEV second.

Clarity was 80% about being green / innovative and 20% about being nice to drive. it had a tiny 100 hp engine and a HUGE battery, which is something i used to advocate for BEFORE actually living with a PHEV.

the Volvo is a 50/50 even split.

what i realized after living with a PHEV for 3 years though is i want a car that is 80% about being nice to drive and 20% about being green.

that is to say i want a PHEV that has a sizeable engine and a compact battery - the opposite of the Honda Clarity formula that i used to believe in.

what happens when you drive a car with a small engine and big battery is you end up dreading going outside of the area covered by your electric driving range, and whenever you do you just want to go back home to charge.

i also experienced something similar with regular hybrid ( Camry ) because it had great fuel economy in the city ( by keeping engine mostly off ) but poor economy on the highway ( due to ICE power having to go through electric motors to reach the tires ) so i dreaded going on the highways.

what it comes down to is i don’t enjoy the car trying to force its habits on me. i don’t want to plan my life around the type of driving my car enjoys. i want a car that is great for all types of driving - slow and fast - short and long. where i just get in and go wherever i want to go and know that i will enjoy myself in the process.

Panamera E-Hybrid is the closest to what i currently believe is the optimal setup, but it isn’t really a car for lazy bums like me - it’s a car for people who believe in hard work and being successful and all that. That is to say it is expensive.

Theoretically it should have been possible to build a car like Panamera E-Hybrid for a lot less money ( minus the high grade leather and aluminum platform of course ) but reality is PHEVs are only popular in Europe and the other European car makers all fell short ( Volvo only has 4 cylinders while BMW and Mercedes have borderline unusable trunk space versus Panamera or Volvo Wagons )

Also when test driving BMW’s latest PHEV drivetrain i realized the ZF 8HP transmission doesn’t really work when you swap the torque converter for electric motor … literally the Volvo is better in this regard because in Volvo the electric motor is direct drive ( no shifts ) and 8 speed transmission still has a Torque Converter so actually shifts are fairly seamless in the Volvo while in the BMW it’s almost laughably bad.

Panamera of course has a double clutch transmission which should solve that problem based on my experience driving a similar type of powertrain in Audi E-Tron Q5 55 TFSI E PHEV … which was actually a shockingly nice car for a 4 cylinder crossover … that Audi powertrain felt BETTER than the Volvo’s while the BMW’s feels WORSE despite being many years newer and having more cylinders …

Audi’s drivetrain felt like it worked PROPERLY. Volvo’s feels a little broken and BMW’s feels almost like a joke where the is a massive power surge then power seemingly is completely cut for what feels like an eternity than it comes back with another surge - it’s almost like somebody is learning how to drive a stick shift - i was kind of shocked how bad it was.

Audi came dangerously close to making a Panamera E-Hybrid alternative with their A7 PHEV but VolksWagen group made sure it didn’t come too close … by screwing it up in a few key areas such as limiting it to 4 cylinders …

in fact they screwed A7 PHEV so good they had to discontinue it in the USA … but the Panamera E-Hybrid survived and is in fact the longest running and most comprehensive line of performance hybrids sold in US …

when you think PHEVs most people think Volvo because Volvo ( at least in US ) sells more PHEVs as a percentage of their overall sales than any other automaker …

but actually BMW sells just as many PHEVs it’s just that BMW is a bigger overall company so their PHEV sales are smaller as a percentage of their total …

meanwhile Porsche isn’t even on the radar of most peasants like me and that’s how i ended up overlooking the fact that Porsche is in fact a PHEV forward company … i watched a review from some European country ( not sure which country it was ) but in their country 70% of Panameras sold are PHEVs …

it seems Porsche not only got the formula right but they got it right a long time ago while everybody else will move to full EVs before they get PHEVs right …