Why do all of the tweeters for the DIY market suck?

i agree with the general sentiment but let’s look at it in more detail though.

i really don’t think an average person needs this. rock concerts in Europe are limited by law to 100db a-weighted at listening position ( there is also a parameter for time averaging but i don’t remember what it is - maybe 1 second or something like that. it’s a parameter you can set on SPL meter alongside with what weighting to use )

this is what A-weighting looks like:

and this is what music spectrum looks like:

so when music is A-weighted to 100 db we’re probably looking at about 98 db for tweeter range or so.

now after accounting for distance, room reflections, directivity and the fact that you have two tweeters you’re probably losing about 5 db or so overall so the tweeter let’s say has to produce 103 db or so …

with a 87 db / watt tweeter that would require 40 watts, which would fall somewhere between peak and continuous power handling of most tweeters. the average tweeter is probably about 20W continuous / 200W peak or so.

in other words to create rock concert levels at home your 1" dome would be hanging by a thread and possibly go up in smoke, but we aren’t talking about 115 db here, more like 103 db.

i had a scan-speak 1.5" dome mid-tweeter once and it was very well made and sounded beautiful. scan-speak makes great products but they are intended for a more laid back type of listening.

i have also heard scan-speak in Sonus Faber speakers:

and it sounded really good, but it was a very mellow and laid back type of sound and we were listening at a level barely above conversation loudness. which is probably how most audiophiles listen.

i would dispute that Scan Speak doesn’t know how to design drivers. they simply aren’t going for maximum performance. They are going for a pleasing sound and parameters that are easy to work with for the average DIY type building using passive crossovers.

pro audio drivers on other hand go for sound that cuts through the noise and rather than being easy to work with they rely on powerful DSP to correct uneven response.

if you wanted to make some simple, passive speakers for near-field listening Scan-Speak would probably be a good option.

if you want to make a system that will make you jump up and down like an idiot you will want to have a lot of DSP, four subwoofers at 18" to 21" size, 12" to 15" woofers and either a 3-way design for mains or very fancy compression drivers that can reach down to about 700 hz.

apparently it has been studied and actually when people drink it makes them want to listen louder

and also when people listen louder it makes them want to drink

and of course drinking is a social activity

and so is dancing

so you get this situation where basically compression drivers are required to have a real good time … but also it requires a good company and drugs or alcohol in addition to loud music …

on other hand if you’re a sad and lonely audiophile listening to sad music alone at home in a tiny San Francisco apartment with neighbors on four sides … maybe a scan speak tweeter is all you need.

personally i would lean towards prosound type setup simply because you can listen to it at a lower level if you want while you can’t crank a bookshelf to rock concert SPL …

one exception to this is hiss from the tweeter …

if you’re running a 110 db / watt tweeter directly off a power amp with no resistive padding chances are hiss will be unacceptable for home use …

this is the main problem with using such tweeters at home - you really need to pay very close attention to controlling hiss …

one way to control the hiss would be to use a passive crossover to the tweeter in which case the 110 db tweeter would be resistively padded down to 95 db or whatever the midrange is, thus reducing the hiss from the amp substantially …

or you may try to find an ultra clean amp for the tweeter but those can be expensive even for a low power amp ( as mentioned before, you really don’t need more than a few watts here )

ultimately you can always pad a 110 db tweeter down to 90 db but you can’t go the other way

this is why i suggest finding a good compression driver and using DSP and / or padding to get it to perform the way you need

there is nothing inherently making compression drivers unsuitable for high-end audio. it’s just that when people enjoy loud music they are typically drunk and aren’t listening for flaws in cymbal crash reproduction but rather simply have a good time.

still, large main monitors often use compression drivers and i would not pay any real money for a speaker using regular domes unless it was a compact near field monitor simply because i think a speaker should be reliable BEFORE it should sound good. just like a car should be safe before it should be anything else.

it is too easy to make a good sounding speaker with a Scan Speak or Dynaudio 1" tweeter and 6" woofer … but such a system would be too easy to blow up …

a speaker should be bulletproof FIRST and THEN you can worry about getting it to sound good …

note how little content there is above 10 khz …

frankly a good case can be made for a mid-tweeter going to about 7 khz and crossing over to a supertweeter …

i had such a system in a car and the treble was to die for …

it was using the said 1.5" scan speak silk dome and a 3/4" beyma neodymium bullet tweeter crossed at 7 khz …

if you think about it BMS coaxial is somewhat like this:

with its 6.3 khz crossover …

again going back to smoke alarm - that’s 3 khz - that’s pretty high pitched …

if you can push crossover out to 6.3 khz like that whatever mess there is associated with it is mostly contained to frequencies that aren’t really that important …

i mean look at Sennheiser HD800 measurements:

it’s a total clusterfuck above 4 khz but the thing is those frequencies simply aren’t that important …

so long as you stay clean and flat in vocal range you can afford to get a bit messy in the “presence” and “air” bands and so on …

to be honest with you it is physically impossible for the BMS coaxial design to avoid all sorts of internal resonances - if measured without smoothing it would probably look as bad as Sennheiser HD800 does … but only above 6 khz or so, which is probably fine …

anyway i have never heard BMS drivers but if JBL buys and rebadges their tweeters that is saying something …

and their designs are without a doubt the most clever on the market …

while all compression drivers use phase plugs and most new ones use ring radiators only BMS is fully utilizing ACOUSTICAL MIRRORS as a way to preserve high frequency content whereas most other compression drivers, including JBL ! ! ! basically lose HF energy in the phase plug …

i guess regular phase plugs are sometimes referred to as “lens” … well if we think of that system as optical then both mirrors and lens can be used … yet only BMS is using the mirror to full advantage …

this is why BMS drivers are the smallest, lightest and flattest measuring and why even JBL buys them …

doesn’t mean they will suit your needs but it does mean that understanding their technology may be eye opening …

understanding Celestion Axiperiodic was also eye opening for me

basically a lot of innovation is happening in compression driver space whereas basically none is happening in the regular dome space …

most innovation in audio right now is in DSP, Arrays and Compression Drivers … so basically innovation is completely bypassing the DIY sphere …

you wanting somebody to build a great dome tweeter is like if i wanted somebody to build a great steam powered locomotive … yes you can absolutely use modern technology to build a great steam powered locomotive … but why ???

a compression driver is simply an advanced tweeter. there is nothing making it inherently worse sounding. they simply tend to be optimized for OVERALL performance rather than just sounding good, which is why at any given price point they won’t sound as good as a regular tweeter - but they will be superior in other ways … OR they will sound good but be more expensive, due to additional engineering and manufacturing required …

just understand it’s not worth anybody’s time to engineer dome tweeters because they are fundamentally a lower performing technology. what companies like Scan Speak do isn’t so much engineering as tinkering, because that’s what DIY basically is.

stuff like scan speak is for people who are content with performance level that was achievable using simple technology 50 years ago … they just want a speaker that is tastefully done, not necessarily the highest performing one.

not everybody wants to inject fentanyl - some people would rather drink wine - even though it is nowhere near as performant and a huge waste of money in comparison.

DIY home audio is like wine and chocolate ( geared towards snobs )

pro audio is like Fentanyl and Crack ( geared towards junkies )

and likewise there is innovation in Fentanyl and Amphetamines space whereas Wine and Chocolate is more about tradition …

and also likewise Fentanyl and Crack may cost more than Wine and Chocolate but they still have better bang for the buck …

and again also nobody goes from Fentanyl and Crack back to Chocolate and Wine - it’s a one way street

same with Pro Audio

you always move to stronger drugs …

https://audioxpress.com/article/the-celestion-cdx14-3040-compression-driver

Here are measurements of a Celestion compression driver.

Here is the distortion at 104dB at 1 meter.

This is very low compared to most compression drivers I have seen. However, it’s not impressive by tweeter standards.

Here are the measurements for one of the better tweeters on the market.

Distortion is lower on the tweeter at the same level, and the tweeter isn’t even mounted in a horn like the compression driver.

Unfortunately we don’t have any measurements of the compression driver at low levels. But even with the compression driver in a horn and the tweeter with no horn the tweeter still has lower distortion at high levels.

They are both around $300. The compression driver has a 3" voice and will play significantly louder. I would put my money on the tweeter for sound quality though.

first of all @kimkardashian that is a quality thought experiment you came up with - i approve !

that 1" dome tweeter is very nice. rated at 96 db but it’s a 4 ohm so really it’s 93 db if it was 8 ohm, but 93 db is still very high for a regular dome tweeter. high efficiency is probably due to combination of large magnet, underhung design ( lighter VC ), wide surround contributing to radiating area and exotic materials in the dome itself for lower mass. $300 for such a high end design seems a fair price ( nobody owes you a superior product at non-superior price ) while on the other hand the improvement versus a good $30 dome will likely be small - this is what happens when you’re up against a wall of diminishing returns.

anyway using this handy calculator:

we note that 8V is 2.8 times 2.8V, so 9db higher than 96db or 105 db. so let’s say both drivers operate at same SPL ( 104 vs 105 ) to keep things simple. i also checked and indeed they are both priced similarly as well, so this is a valid comparison. same price, same SPL - good work on experiment design !

now as for distortion they’re also both remarkably close at around -40 db or 1% THD for both of them …

and yet their distortion profiles are very different, as you might expect …

for the 1" dome distortion is low above 3 khz, but rises dramatically below 3 khz and would go much, much higher without the high pass filter …

for the compression driver there is NO HIGH PASS FILTER in place … despite this distortion does not exceed 2% even as low as 1 khz … instead it takes off above 6 khz … why is that ?

well actually this is a very well known characteristic of compression drivers. i learned about it by reading this paper by JBL ( let me know if the link doesn’t work - for me it automatically downloads the PDF instead of opening it, which is fine though - just open it from the disk ):

https://jblpro.com/en/site_elements/tech-note-characteristics-of-high-frequency-compression-drivers

but basically Compression Drivers ( CD ) have an additional distortion mechanism that regular drivers don’t have and it is actually the dominant distortion mechanism in CD …

in regular dome and cone drivers the main distortion mechanisms are nonlinearity of motor and suspension, but due to horn loading in CD the movement of diaphragm is so small that those distortion mechanisms become almost negligible …

unfortunately a new distortion mechanism comes into play in CD … namely the volume and pressure of the compression chamber are constantly changing as the diaphragm moves and this modulates the output …

what makes this distortion mechanism unique compared to the ones you are more familiar with is that instead of increasing at lower frequencies it increases at higher frequencies …

and this is because horn loading is stronger at higher frequencies …

additionally above a certain frequency, called Mass Break Point which JBL puts at around 3.5 khz the driver begins to lose efficiency, which i assume is due to diaphragm no longer being pistonic …

thus CD distortion rises with both frequency and output level and the way to reduce it is to increase the surface area of the driver …

however only the surface area next to the voice coil actually counts because at the frequencies where CDs produce distortion ( high frequencies ) they don’t operate pistonically …

this is why modern CD designs use polymer ring diaphragms instead of titanium domes …

a ring has surface area on both inside and outside of VC thus effectively doubling surface area … at the same time it eliminates the center area of the dome which only works at lower frequencies where CDs already have very low distortion … this center area only contributes to HF breakup and harshness and eliminating it results in a smoother top end without significant reduction in overall output of driver except at very low frequencies …

however at very low frequencies ( like 500 hz ) the output is mainly limited by horn dimensions than by compression driver anyway … horns that can hit 500 hz are very large and expensive and aren’t practical, thus advantage of a 4" titanium dome CD over a ring radiator are moot in practice …

when amplifiers became cheap the industry has given up on using horns for midrange. first midrange compression drivers became obsolete and currently HF dome CD are becoming obsolete and replaced with ring radiator CDs. this allows for slimmer cabinet designs and smoother top end.

the final boss of this CD evolution is the dual radiator JBL driver with two 3" voice coils. this effectively QUARUPLES the surface area ( two voice coils with radiating area on both inside and outside each ) for the lowest distortion possible.

so read that JBL paper i linked and remember - while for regular drivers distortion is minimized by increasing surface area for compression drivers it is minimized by increasing voice coil size. this is because regular drivers move pistonically at frequencies at which they produce highest distortion ( low frequencies ) but compression drivers don’t operate pistonically at frequencies where they produce highest distortion ( high frequencies ) thus it is no longer about overall diaphragm area but just the area next to the voice coil … which is maximized by using larger VC diameter, radiating surface on both inside and outside of VC and finally in case of JBL D2 by using two voice coils and diaphragms …

also note that BMS and B&C coaxials don’t have that same benefit because only the smaller of their voice coils is the tweeter coil while the larger one is the midrange … with JBL both coils are 3" and both run full range …

of course the JBL driver is optimized for line arrays which have to fight HF dissipation over long distances in rock concerts while BMS and B&C are more optimized as point source drivers for smaller venues …

so both JBL and BMS coaxial CD drivers are good but JBL D2 is more of an SPL monster with limited midrange extension while BMS coaxial is more of a wide-band driver with lower midrange reach.

the point here is you can’t just swap a regular dome with a CD - they have a different nature and each has to be understood separately. but overall a modern CD is a more capable tool than a regular dome tweeter.

remember most of the really bad CD distortion will be at highest frequencies at which distortion is completely inaudible for two reasons:

1 - 2nd harmonic of anything over 8 khz or so and third harmonic of anything over 5 khz or so will pretty much go into ultrasound region …

2 - our brains cannot detect pitch of very high frequencies - we can only tell that the sound is there, but we cannot tell what it is …

that is not to say that CD distortion is inaudible. quite the contrary. CD distortion is extremely unpleasant when a small CD is driven to high levels. cheap PA speakers use CD with small voice coil diameters and when those get cranked in a bar with drunk people distortion can get very high …

that doesn’t mean that with larger VC and more reasonable output levels you can’t have low distortion in a CD at frequencies that count the most ( upper midrange )

furthermore with a CD you can cross much lower, even with a ring radiator that intuitively looks like it probably doesn’t have enough surface area - but the horn loading will make up for that lack of are AT LOW FREQUENCIES so long as the horn is large enough.

basically with CD you will have to re-think how you design the speaker but ultimately you will be able to achieve higher performance.

and if you just look at JBL D2 vs BMS Coaxial vs Celestion Axiperiodic you can see how much flexibility there is in CD design …

JBL D2 > maximum output / lowest distortion with focus on HF
Celestion Axiperiodic > high output, low distortion and midrange extension
BMS Coaxial > wide bandwidth

you can also use different horns and different DSP which means that in the end you can do pretty much anything you want …

and that’s not even going into 3D printing custom V-Dosc arrays LOL

whereas with regular dome your only option is a good $30 dome or a slightly better $300 dome that is 90% the same …

well, with a regular dome you could remove the faceplate and replace it with a 3D printed waveguide so that would be interesting too …

but with a CD the entire system is optimized together whereas with a regular dome you’re just slapping a waveguide on top of it …

it’s kind of like Formula 1 is designed from ground up with Aerodynamics in mind and while you can slap a spoiler on any car it won’t really benefit from it to the same extent …

use a regular $20 19mm dome for 4-5" 2-way portable speakers.

use a regular $30 25mm dome for 6-8" 2-way nearfield monitors.

use that $200 dome of yours for mid-field 3-way monitors

use a $200-$1000 Compression Driver for Main monitors with 15" prosound woofer(s)

keep in mind the reason some Main studio monitors use regular domes is because they are made by companies like Dynaudio which feel compelled to use their own drivers, and they only have regular domes in their line up.

companies like Genelec aren’t so constrained by driver choice which is why top of the line Genelec monitor uses a compression driver:

a 2" VC driver with 1" throat to be precise.

if you simply look at what JBL and Genelec do in their respective areas of Prosound and Studio Monitoring and then understand relationship of Home High End Audio to those two then you will know what you need to do …

generally home audio requires a bit less SPL ( especially at high frequencies ) than Prosound but a bit more bass than Studio Monitors, which must be “accurate” rather than pleasing ( bass heavy )

additionally studio main monitors are flush mounted into wall and designed to operate without subwoofers

while prosound speakers are generally designed to be transported by a truck and combined with subs as well as stacked / arrayed

studio main monitors come with custom active crossovers while PA speakers typically have integrated biamplification and prosound gear typically uses DSP gear like Q-Sys that is fully customizable for any application …

understand all approaches, their cons and pros and you will know what you need …

it will ultimately be some kind of a combination between Home Audio, Prosound and Studio Sound …

if you understand how Prosound achieves SPL and how Studio Speakers achieve Accuracy then you can think of ways of injecting those things into your home Audio but …

but home audio must be pleasing while Studio Sound doesn’t have to be … ( read: need more bass ! )

and home audio must be non-fatigueing while ProSound doesn’t have to be ( read: laid back mids, smoother top end )

furthermore home audio can’t take over the room in the way Studio Monitors and PA speakers do …

in the end you should be able to achieve something that makes you happy. convincing others that your system is better than theirs is another matter …

https://www.magicoaudio.com/m9home

Magico uses a 28mm dome in the M9.

It’s an audiofart company so it’s not worth much, although it is one of the better audiofart companies. I wonder how loud the speaker can get.

A tweeter also doesn’t usually have more than about 1mm of xmax, so it’s limited there as well if it’s a direct radiator.

i only spent about one minute on their page and already they set off every possible red flag for me in terms of being an AudioPhool company …

they put carbon fiber ( the ultimate in light weight material ) everywhere then they brag about how heavy their speaker is …

and their speaker is EXACTLY 1,000 lbs …

so they plastered carbon everywhere for the optics and then added weight inside until they reached the magic 1,000 lbs mark …

i once told my friend Igor that heavy weight is a sign of quality and he remarked that companies should bolt down a brick to the inside of a speaker cabinet to increase the value of the speaker … well, unfortunately many companies since went that exact route.

and not only speaker companies.

i am building a computer right now and pretty much every component of the build is following this strategy. my motherboard is literally as heavy as a brick - the front is covered in aluminum slabs and the back is covered with a steel plate. all just to make it feel expensive due to heavy weight.

and my computer chassis is so heavy i can’t put it on a folding plastic table to work on it because i’m afraid the table may break … i will have to work on the floor …

i estimate the finished computer build will be around 100 lbs …

i didn’t think it through when i said 25mm - what i was trying to say was ONE INCH but actually now that i think of it Dynaudio type 28mm soft domes used to refer to themselves as 1.1" rather than 1" in a “these go to 11” kind of flex …

and when i said 19mm i meant 3/4 inch.

but what i really meant by 3/4 inch is SMALL and what i meant by One Inch is full size and i guess 28mm you can say is Jumbo.

depends on the material though. i don’t recall any aluminum or magnesium domes over 26mm - it is the soft domes from the Danish type companies that used to be 28mm …

there is no hard limit to how large a soft dome can be, like there is with a hard dome due to breakup …

instead a large soft dome is simply going to beam, and it’s up to you whether you think this is acceptable …

Genelec uses hard domes and frankly i think hard domes are more accurate and detailed and Genelec is right to use them …

Midrange domes is another matter. Soft domes are better for midrange but hard domes better for Tweeters IMO.

My favorite result was 1.5" Scan Speak Soft Dome Mid-Tweeter crossed to 3/4" Beyma Bullet Supertweeter at 7 khz … it was smooth and airy in the upper midrange with serious bite at the very top end …

though such sparking sound has fallen out of favor these days in favor of a more muted sound …

i guess when compact disc just came out people were excited by the high frequencies it had on offer but since then this sound got played out and now it’s more a sign of cheapness …

same as how sugar used to be a luxury for kings but now sweets are for children and are a sign of bad taste …

probably loud enough for their customer who most likely never listens to them at all and just buys them for eye candy / bragging rights.

that has no real bearing on tweeter output - just the crossover frequency.

reducing frequency by 2X at same power requires 4X excursion

but increasing power 4X at same frequency only requires 2X excursion

so by raising Xover by 2X you can now handle 16X power …

since the speaker in question is a 3-way they have some flexibility with the crossover point …

regular tweeters are limited mainly thermally while compression drivers are limited mainly by distortion that is considered acceptable …

that doesn’t mean that CD has higher distortion at any given output level but rather that their output limit is orders of magnitude higher while their distortion is only slightly lower with the net result being they will become unlistenable before they blow up whereas a regular dome will blow up before it becomes unlistenable …

it is arguably a good feature to have distortion warning you against turning the speaker up higher …

kind of like in cars understeer is actually a feature - when the nose begins to plow that’s how you know you are reaching the limit of grip and need to back off - whereas a car that doesn’t “suffer” from understeer will not give you that advance warning and instead just kill you when you take the corner too fast …

I have found that all compression drivers go to shit at 10kHz and above.

Someone should use a bandpass design for a compression driver to filter our everything above that frequency. It’s all distortion products up there and those should be gone.

that’s the idea behind BMS coaxial compression driver with 7 khz crossover to integrated supertweeter.