ASR measures the Neumann KH150

Audio Playback
21

i doubt the diffraction between Genelec and Neumann is very different, i mean overall cabinet shape is fairly similar.

i was wondering what all that SAM ( Smart Active Monitor ) was about.

To be able to measure the actual speaker in the actual environment and then download the calibration to the speaker’s internal DSP is a big deal IMO.

not only is every room different but every driver and speaker is also different due to manufacturing tolerances. i don’t know if Neumann calibrates every speaker’s DSP individually or not but without such calibration every speaker would measure differently.

and what do you care if some other unit measured flat in some other room ? you want YOUR unit to measure flat in YOUR room.

A DSP that isn’t user tunable really doesn’t offer much advantage over a good analog crossover on the other hand. I don’t know what that Neumann offers but if it’s just the basic tone controls like +/- 3db boost or cut here and there then it’s the same thing that analog monitors like my Mackies always offered.

In fact my pops had passive speakers back in Kiev that had those adjustments, so this is legacy stuff.

using DSP as simply a more expensive substitute for analog circuits is not that smart. yes i understand FIR can do stuff analog can’t but i’m not sure if it is audible. on other hand room EQ is definitely going to be audible.

but again, as i said, if you want to be able to EQ a null at around 100 hz or so you will need a powerful speaker. these tiny speakers are already working hard even before any bass boost. and if you later move to another room that has a deeper null you can’t digitally increase the size and power of a speaker. on other hand if you get something like VTX F35 you have the power and you can always re-tune the DSP later … of course that’s another extreme. it would have been nice to have something in-between as an option.

the other advantage of Genelecs is the coaxial design, which means your FR is more consistent vertically …

the typical crossover at about 2 khz is right in the middle of everything - it is a very important frequency range. i suppose DSP filters can have very steep slopes and minimize the damage there, but coaxial could all but eliminate it.

in fact with a coaxial DSP design you can even overlap the response of the tweeter and midrange in order to shape the off-axis response ! in other words if the directivity doesn’t exactly match you could hand over gradually from one to the other and eliminate a sharp step in off-axis response. not sure it would be useful in practice but the combination of coaxial and DSP does offer possibities.

here is David Gunness of Fulcrum Acoustic talking about “temporal equalization” which is really his brand name for using FIR DSP in conjunction with Coaxial Drivers:

there are also parts 2 and 3 of this video series you can find on the same YouTube page.

coaxial drivers may not have on-axis response that is as smooth but that can be EQd whereas spatial response can’t be.

there have to be places you can check these Genelecs out.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com

B&H has Genelecs “on display” in store, but even though i been there many times i never tried to listen to speakers there, so i don’t know how it works - you can call them and ask.

22

by the way if you look closely the best Genelecs:

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and the best JBLs:

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you should notice some similarities :wink:

both have slot loaded woofers above and below a tightly integrated mid-tweeter module.

and both are designed to work with subs.

because great minds think alike !

it’s just that one speaker is more optimized towards accuracy and another towards SPL. but both represent excellent engineering IMO.

the JBL M2 on other hand is sort of confused about what it’s purpose in life is … is it a PA speaker ? is it a studio monitor ? is it a home high-end speaker ? maybe to somebody that’s exactly what they need … but the M2 seems more like a candidate for cloning than an actual speaker anyone should consider buying. the fact that it doesn’t fit any market means it’s a low volume speaker and as such the price can’t ever be good.

of course neither Genelec SAM nor JBL VTX are cheap but at least they represent the pinnacle of engineering whereas the M2 is more like a trickle down version of something like VTX in my opinion, even if it is better suited for home use maybe …

23

also think of resale value.

it’s easier to sell something that has a reputation for excellence, than something which may be excellent but nobody knows about it.

i once got a deal where Beats headphones were included as a free bonus with something else. i sold them immediately without opening and got good money for them. they were obviously trash but they were easy to sell because everybody knew what they were.

between Neumann, Genelec and VTX i think i would rather be trying to sell the Genelec as everybody knows what it is and it is a self contained system.

everybody knows what JBL is but VTX F35 is not a self-contained system. it can’t be easily integrated into just any random setup. even if i sold it with matching Crown I-Tech amps only folks with other VTX gear would really be willing to pay a good price to complete their setup with matching speakers. and those types of customers might not even be looking at used market. shipping could get expensive too.

not sure how many people have even heard of Neumann, and even those that did would probably be willing to accept some substitute from another brand if it was cheaper.

whereas with Genelec it’s a name people recognize as a leader you can set it up in any room regardless of what other equipment you use, so that should make selling easier. probably you could have somebody pick them up locally.

remember everybody signing up to gym on January 1st thinks they will keep training consistently but 90% of them never come back even after buying a 3-year commitment plan.

you must have an exit strategy !

24

I think the M2 was designed to be a mid field monitor for studios, but it became popular in home audio as well. It’s just a very well engineered full-range floor standing speaker. It was also a project for JBL to work on horn geometry and transducer design and have something to show for it. It’s too different of a product than the VTX to compare.

JBL has a passive speaker that’s roughly equivalent called the 4367. It is tuned higher and would cross over better with a sub. It also uses better drivers.

It also costs $8000 a speaker. Another good candidate for cloning.

I don’t see why you don’t just build a perfect speaker if you think you know how. It sounds like a fun project.

This Neumann would also be easy to clone. Just use one of those Purifi midwoofers and a good tweeter and 3D print a baffle with a waveguide and you are good to go. You can just use a MiniDSP as the crossver.

Forget about cloning the Genelec.

25

they must have gotten tired of everybody ripping them off.

you had mackie ( mine ) ripping them off then behringer ripping off the mackie …

they probably came up with this new design at least in part to make it hard to copy …

anyway i’m out to gym, will be back after around 10:30 pm EST …

26

to some extent money is a problem … but it’s not the biggest problem.

a bigger problem is that i don’t actually need speakers - fine with headphones - but that is also not the biggest problem.

the biggest problem of all is simply lack of motivation to do anything at all.

you have to understand i haven’t worked or shaved in about 15 years.

the reasons are too complicated but ultimately it’s lack of motivation …

i might be bipolar … sometimes i have flashes of motivation … for example a few days ago groypers on Twitter were talking about some OnlyFans model and while they were bitching about how wrong OnlyFans is i just picked her up from Twitter and got her to agree to meet me in real life and she was excited about it … mere hours later i slid back into depression and remembered that i quit dating over a decade ago and vowed never to do it again.

not the first time it happened either. sometimes when i recognize instagram models in the real world i start to hit on them and they pretty much always get wet, then right after that i’m like what am i doing - stop it ! you were having a manic episode ! my mission isn’t to date models - it is to hate myself, hate my life and wait for death !

the thing with women is if you believe you’re good enough they will go with it, and when i am having my manic episodes i believe in that moment that i really am good enough for a model with hundreds of thousands of followers so i just approach her and everything goes great - but later when my mania wears off i’m like WTF was that ? what was i doing ? LOL

designing speakers is a bit like this as well. when i am manic i will design a system that exceeds anything ever designed by an order of magnitude in every possible way ( i design cars too ) then when the mania wears off i’m like - you don’t even use the speakers you have idiot ! why would you need one that 50 times more advanced ?

i think what is happening is my brain knows that the reality of life is horror and death and that’s where i am 90% of the time but sometimes when i am either daydreaming about speakers or cars or when i see a famous instagram model in real life ( usually this happens in gyms, but also happened in a pool once where i just so happened to be the best swimmer ) suddenly my brain seems to go this isn’t real world - it’s a fantasy - just like when you’re daydreaming about speakers - in this fantasy you are god, and i just project this god image and these hoes fall for it instantly.

then an hour later i’m like but i’m not a god, i’m a cockroach and deserve nothing.

i mean it’s it’s literally the same with speakers. LOL.

27

i honestly believe that when i am depressed i am sane, and when i am manic i am not sane.

in other words i believe that i am sane when i do absolutely nothing and wait for death and i’m insane when i accomplish without any effort things others can only dream of.

look at Sam Bankman Friend - was he sane when he became the richest 20-something in the world ? no he wasn’t because now he will go to prison for it.

same here - if i were to actually take those models out at some point i would have to face the fact that i am not God and i was merely feeling that way at the moment because i was the most impressive person in that building at that time even though in the grand scheme of things i am not even that good.

so to me sanity is when i remember how futile everything is and am depressed. and insanity is when i am excited focusing on the greatness that is possible.

28

tell me the dimensions of your room, your budget, what type of material you will be playing on your system and how loud / bass heavy you like it and i will tell you what you can DIY towards that end …

that way you will be living my insanity while i don’t have to hate myself for losing my grip on reality again …

Robert Greene in his books calls this “losing a sense of proportion” which is how great people meet their downfall …

if i actually built my designs or took those models out that’s what i would be doing … losing a sense of proportion and meeting my downfall.

however luckily you refuse to listen to my words of wisdom anyway so you wouldn’t really be losing anything by building my designs because if you don’t you will just build something else that is worse :slight_smile:

it’s like i have done steroids before but i wouldn’t do them again … but i would gladly put some kid on them to see how big i can get him :slight_smile:

same with putting you on my speaker designs LOL

29

I don’t buy it. LOL. You don’t even know what a spinorama is. A good speaker isn’t merely one that can get loud.

30

i actually think you’re the one who doesn’t know what spinorama is.

you seem to think it is some measurement standard when it is just a website that collects random information from the internet.

31

it is trivially simple to make a good speaker that doesn’t get loud.

it gets exponentially harder to make a good speaker that does get loud.

even you will admit that your Neumann can be cloned with little over $50 in parts plus cabinet, amps and DSP.

32

i understand my definition of good speaker as one that makes female vocals sexy is probably not scientific enough for you so how about this:

1 - loud
2 - even louder at 40 hz
3 - not too much distortion
4 - frequency response not too ragged, especially from about 500 hz to 5 khz
5 - reasonable off-axis response and power response
6 - not gonna lie don’t care about imaging at all

in the end we all care about the same things but our priorities are not in the same order

you aren’t applying enough correction for the fact that audiophiles are lying sacks of shit who only say things to appear to have golden ears but don’t even know any music worth listening to …

for example, audiophiles will:

1 - talk smack about bass, as if bass is a bad thing, simply because everybody enjoys bass therefore to show that you’re better than everybody you must badmouth bass

2 - downplay the importance of loudness. it’s almost exactly the same as with bass but with a twist - by using the word “dynamics” instead of loudness audiophiles can now get a pass to talk about it in a positive way.

3 - imaging. since literally nobody cares about imaging again if you want to show you’re better than everybody else you must constantly talk about imaging. not saying it doesn’t exist - it just doesn’t matter.

anyway you are probably seeing the trend here. audiophiles by their very nature must make everything ass backwards. the more important something is to music enjoyment the more they bad-mouth it. and the less important something is the more they try to make it into holy grail.

my approach is unique because i combine sound engineering principles with common sense observations of what REAL people prefer, not fake ass audiophiles pretend to prefer.

and that simply means loud with lots of bass plus clean vocals. clean vocals means relatively even frequency response and relatively low distortion in the vocal range. any decent 3-way will generally do this.

thus all you really need is a decent prosound 3-way and some big subwoofers. and you’re done.

now of course my designs were infinitely more complex because they were motivated by the desire to out-invent and out-engineer everybody on earth, and the reason i am not going to build them is because i’m not insane and i know it is not necessary.

33

my final design just before i decided to put an end to the mania was

  • a 3-way line array using annular ring compression drivers ( BMS ),
  • 3D printed waveguides using the principle of L-Acoustics V-DOSC that can combine an array of point sources into a true line source
  • progressive waveguides for midrange array in a shape of a flower extruded vertically that eliminates edge diffraction in THREE SEPARATE WAYS by using an infinite curve, zig-zag edge and also transition from solid to foam boundary.
  • cardioid line array for bass, using a unique folded, damped and perforated transmission line setup i invented for this application
  • distributed subwoofer array for sub-bass using re-tune-able ports in vented cabinets and 21" Eighteen Sound Tetracoil Push-Pull drivers.
  • Dynacord / Powersoft / Crown amplifiers
  • Q-Sys DSP

after completing the design i realized i would never have the money or energy to build it and nobody needs this level of performance …

if built it would be in a class by itself with no other speaker ever made even being comparable to it …

it would essentially be an audiophile version of a VTX Line Array with additional enhancements borrowed from L-Acoustics and Fulcrum Acoustic plus a few other sources and my own unique additions …

34

Do you have any blueprints for said speakers?

35

:rofl: LOL

36

what specifically do you want to know about them ? they’re in my head. the design is in many ways flexible. like i said it’s basically a JBL VTX 3-way Line Array but enhanced with L-Acoustics V-DOSC technology as well as with Fulcrum Acoustic Passive Cardioid bass approach which was once again enhanced by me when i replaced a box with resistive vents in the back with a lossy transmission line that is resistively vented across the entire length creating a smooth pattern and eliminating resonances.

that transmission line cardioid bass section is legitimately brilliant invention but you are not likely to understand it, probably will just show it to somebody else who will patent it.

the other stuff that isn’t patentable i can explain if you want.

37

basically start with this line array:

and then add this ( L-Acoustics V-DOSC Wavefront Sculpture )

https://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20221223/9813.pdf

then add this ( Passive Cardioid Bass ):

then realize it’s bullshit and doesn’t actually work and invent your own solution that does in fact produce cardioid bass, but of course it can’t go as low as a sealed box …

so then you also add a distributed subwoofer array to fill below 100 hz or so.

effectively turning it into a 4-way but with a lot cleaner bass response in room by maintaining consistent directivity down to 100 hz ( using passive cardioid bass ) and then switching over to basically even room pressurization from 100 hz down ( by using distributed subs ).

38

i have most recently seen EAW adopt V-DOSC type waveguide into their latest products.

it seems JBL and others are still in denial about this technology because they didn’t invent it …

but it’s so obvious i can’t believe i didn’t invent it myself ! it is basically a smart way to delay the center of the wavefront, though there are many other ways to do it ( including using special acoustical foam that slows speed of sound ) but the solution that L-Acoustics came up with is the only one that makes sense to me …

i was literally thinking about a ribbon array up until i saw the V-DOSC and i was like - why doesn’t everybody use this ? it turns point sources into a line source and is completely elegant and practical.

L-Acoustics Arrays were used by Dave Rat at Coachella alongside his own custom SuperSubs that are built around the Powersoft M-Force …

one reason i became discouraged though is because of course i realized it can be taken a step further, which L-Acoustics at the time couldn’t see because annular ring tweeters weren’t a thing back then …

but with a ring radiator the V-DOSC can be taken to next level but there are no such products on the market and 3D printing doesn’t have sufficiently tight tolerances for compression driver phase plugs …

so things like that is what makes me depressed and not want to do anything as an example …

39

compared to a ribbon array a V-DOSC type line source comprised of compression drivers is far more robust and can go much lower …

ribbons excel above 10 khz or so … which ironically is a region that is simply irrelevant …

a V-DOSC type array of compression drivers has the same directivity benefits of a ribon line source but can easily go below 1 khz with ear-bleeding levels and very little distortion …

the reason nobody uses them is because audiophiles are idiots, can’t understand technology, don’t care about performance and ultimately just want to signal and brag …

now there is one downside and that’s flare rate - slow expansion rate ( flare rate ) increases distortion in horns … and V-DOSC will slow it … a problem that can be solved by cutting it in half and using a ring radiator instead of inverted dome while also eliminating the phase plug … but they haven’t figured this out yet.

if i could build my own compression drivers around this idea performance could be increased by yet another order of magnitude to absolutely hysterical levels … give the industry another 10 - 20 years and they may get there.

the reason this isn’t happening faster is because they like having standard horn throat diameters like 1", 1.4" 1.5" and 2" … this will all go out the window when a ring radiator loads a V-DOSC directly without a phase plug or horn throat …

horn throat is what creates distortion in horns and my design eliminates it completely while also eliminating the phase plug which is the most expensive part of compression driver due to tight tolerances yet they can’t do this because they are stuck with existing standards …

it’s kind of like modern bullet trains still run on rail width that was originally taken from the size of a horse’s ass back in ancient Rome … or like Intel X86 chips still run on architecture developed back when computers were nothing more than a glorified calculator.

they stick to obsolete standards as long as they possibly can before it simply becomes impossible then they switch to new technology that was known for decades to be obviously superior …

but yeah the take home point here is - you get much better return on your time by reading AES papers than DIY forums. even if you don’t understand 90% of what you read you will still learn much more than by reading a forum where people don’t understand 90% of what they write.

40

I understand cardioids. There are companies like ME Gethain that use passive cardioids in their speakers and subwoofers. D&B has subwoofers with cardioids and many pro audio companies allow their subwoofers to be set up in a cardioid configuration.

Cardioids aren’t that practical though. With a cardioid you throw away 80% of the sound energy and make your subwoofer way less efficient. You basically have to use three subs to get the same output as one sub.

Cardioid subwoofers basically serve one purpose: to reduce the sound energy going to the stage so that the performers don’t go deaf and can hear themselves play. They are useful in live sound but not very useful otherwise.

The best way to minimize boundary interference with subwoofers is to place them on walls and corners. Better yet, build a single bass array or a double bass array. You have all the benefits of arrays and cardioids.